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tienzen Fheari Lazhin

Joined: 24 Jul 2009 Posts: 170 Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 5:07 am Post subject: |
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| Mbwa wrote: | | tienzen wrote: | | At the beginning of this thread, you already showed your filthiness. At the time, you were only insulting me, and it is okay with me. But, you were condemned by other decent members of this forum. Yet, you still have no shame. |
I don't know if you're mentioning me as one of those decent members. Just saying, I did express disdain towards his harsh language, although I could've said it in a nicer way myself, and probably should have. |
You were the "first" one made a condemnation on Avjunza's vulgarness on this thread. Thank you very much.
Tienzen Gong _________________ PreBabel is a universal language. It is available at
http://www.prebabel.info |
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Nortaneous Olvaszi Lazhin

Joined: 03 Apr 2009 Posts: 327
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Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 5:15 am Post subject: |
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| You keep mentioning word sets. What about the grammar? How does that work? How would you map something like this into PB? |
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tienzen Fheari Lazhin

Joined: 24 Jul 2009 Posts: 170 Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 5:52 am Post subject: |
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| Systemzwang wrote: | I believe that your attempts fail to capture the inherent *flexibility* of language, which is one of the features of language that makes it so useful - because it's so vaguely defined, it can work even in situations completely unlike from those it developed with a selectional bias for handling - in fact, I think the reaper function for language development is likely to cause features that increase rigidity in language to be purged because they reduce the usefulness and adaptability.
I will try and formalize this criticism of your idea and show how this point of view applies to a lot of your ideas later on. |
You have touched one of the most important issue in linguistics, and I, indeed, have not addressed it thus far. In physics and mathematics, the flexibility can be precisely defined in terms of the "degrees of freedom" which is a well-understood subject. This is a big topic, and I will discuss it in my future posts. In a short conclusion, the stabler a system is, the more degrees of freedom it can handle. For example, the stabler politic system is, the more freedom its citizens can enjoy. Thus, the stronger a universal structure is, the more diversified sub-systems it can handle.
I am truly looking forward to your critique on this. It will surely be very important to my work.
I do want to show the power of the flexibility of language and the power of the adaptability of the human linguistic capability with two examples.
1. ± (face), ÄÑ (noodle or flour) in the traditional Chinese character set, they are homonym.
In the Simplified character set, ± means both face and noodle. Yet, Chinese people handled this transformation, from homonym to homophone.
2. ¦Z (queen), «á (behind ...). They are homophone in the traditional character set. In the Simplified set, the character ¦Z is eliminated. Now, ¬Ó ¡] «á ¡^ is now the Queen.
These changes violated all rational linguistic rules. Yet, there is no problem for those who learned only the Simplified system. How truly powerful the adaptability and the flexibility the languages have!
Tienzen Gong _________________ PreBabel is a universal language. It is available at
http://www.prebabel.info |
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Systemzwang Olvaszi Lazhin


Joined: 11 Nov 2005 Posts: 484
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Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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| tienzen wrote: |
These changes violated all rational linguistic rules. |
What?
What linguistic rules are you talking about? On whose authorities are those rules valid? Where do you find any such rules?
(these questions might sound uninteresting or groundless or whatever, but they're actually rather relevant and important for this line of argument) |
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Khagan Olvaszi Lazhin

Joined: 24 Oct 2009 Posts: 416
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Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Systemzwang wrote: | | tienzen wrote: |
These changes violated all rational linguistic rules. |
What?
What linguistic rules are you talking about? On whose authorities are those rules valid? Where do you find any such rules?
(these questions might sound uninteresting or groundless or whatever, but they're actually rather relevant and important for this line of argument) |
He most likely means "linguistic continuity" and "etymological clarity" (or at least "etymological discernibility") when he writes "linguistic rules".
The fact that he appears to imagine linguistics to be a system with rules and laws as fundamental and unalterable as physics and mathematics might make productive discussion difficult though.
The Khagan |
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Leto Atreides Zevei Lazhin

Joined: 04 Feb 2010 Posts: 109
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Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Ave94 wrote: | Why there can be no universal language:
1. You couldn't get 6 billion people to learn a language that currently has no speakers. Learning a language takes a lot of time and effort, and most people only need to use one language in their life. And if they were going to learn another language, why one with no other speakers, when they can learn a natural language with millions of speakers? If there are only a few other speakers, then there's no point in learning it, because it would be useless without people to talk to in it. And it is easier to learn a language if you have help from fluent speakers.
2. Nationalism would cause people to try and preserve their national languages. There would be strong opposition to a language that seeks to replace their languages.
3. Even if you could get billions of people to speak the same language, it wouldn't last. Soon it would diverge into separate dialects, then mutually unintelligible languages. After all the work teaching everyone the language, you'd have to start all over again. |
You have my exact opinion on international auxiliary languages.
I don't want all people to speak the same language. I like racial, cultural and linguistic diversity because it makes our world more interesting. |
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tienzen Fheari Lazhin

Joined: 24 Jul 2009 Posts: 170 Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Systemzwang wrote: | | tienzen wrote: |
These changes violated all rational linguistic rules. |
What?
What linguistic rules are you talking about? On whose authorities are those rules valid? Where do you find any such rules?
(these questions might sound uninteresting or groundless or whatever, but they're actually rather relevant and important for this line of argument) |
You are right. I am sorry for using the word "rational" carelessly, and it actually shoots my own foot in terms of the unified linguist theory (ULT). I was trying to say "conventional or traditional" rules, of course not any rule of ULT. Even this explanation is not adequate. At any way, it was a bad choice of wording.
| Khagan wrote: |
He most likely means "linguistic continuity" and "etymological clarity" (or at least "etymological discernibility") when he writes "linguistic rules".
The fact that he appears to imagine linguistics to be a system with rules and laws as fundamental and unalterable as physics and mathematics might make productive discussion difficult though. |
Thanks for the help. I did have such an idea of your first sentence in my mind at the time of the writing. Yet, I will go beyond your second sentence, that is, I am not confined in the way of your description.
| Leto Atryda wrote: |
I don't want all people to speak the same language. I like racial, cultural and linguistic diversity because it makes our world more interesting. |
I agree with you.
I am sure that no universal language will or can make all people to speak the same language. By definition, a universal language will be the second language for all people.
By the way, this PreBabel project goes beyond constructing a universal language. It also wants to construct a unified linguist theory.
Tienzen Gong _________________ PreBabel is a universal language. It is available at
http://www.prebabel.info |
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MrKrov Fheari Lazhin


Joined: 17 Jan 2010 Posts: 254 Location: /ai/ > /a:/
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Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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| tienzen wrote: | I am sure that no universal language will or can make all people to speak the same language. By definition, a universal language will be the second language for all people.
Tienzen Gong |
There's nothing about being universal that requires it to be a second language.
Grover Cleveland |
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tienzen Fheari Lazhin

Joined: 24 Jul 2009 Posts: 170 Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:28 am Post subject: |
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| Nortaneous wrote: | | You keep mentioning word sets. What about the grammar? How does that work? How would you map something like this into PB? |
Thanks for the link. I bookmarked it as I do not have enough time to go over it in its entirety. I will definitely get back with you on that.
About the grammar, you are seemingly still with the mentality of "the grammar of language x". That is, the PreBabel should have "a grammar" to look like the grammar of language x or language y. This is, indeed, the case for PreBabel (Chinese) or PreBabel (English). It can even be the case for the PreBabel (Proper). But for PreBabel itself, as a unified linguistic theory, it goes beyond that. There is not "a grammar" but is "a spectrum of grammar" which is discussed in the "Super Unified Linguistic Theory" (SULT) at http://www.prebabel.info/bab014.htm , ranging from type 0 to type 1. Thus, I did shoot my own foot in my previous post, at least, at this moment. I will provide an explanation later as it does violate a very important principle which is not fully introduced thus far.
What kind of grammar will the PreBabel (Proper) eventually pick up? I don't know. Before answering this, we must first find out how many choices it has. How big the grammatic universe that the PreBabel (Proper) can roam in? In SULT, it shows a grammar continuum, and a language x sits only on a spot in that spectrum.
In SULT, the grammatic continuum goes from a ground (default) state (type 0) to a high energy state (type 1). Which state is better? This is not a good question. The ground state has higher plasticity (fuzziness or flexibility). The high energy state is more rigid and precise (elasticity). Yet, this is not to say that the type 1 language has no flexibility but is relatively less. However, the growth pattern should be from the ground state to high energy state. Yet, the gravity should pull toward the direction to the default state.
The SULT only outlined (demarcated) a scope of the grammatic universe. What kind of laws and dynamics will roam in this universe? It only very briefly mentioned,
1. Two PreBabel laws
2. pidginning and creoling processes
We must know the details of the dynamics of this grammatic continuum before we can discuss the grammar for the PreBabel (proper). I will discuss this in my next post.
Tienzen Gong _________________ PreBabel is a universal language. It is available at
http://www.prebabel.info |
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Nortaneous Olvaszi Lazhin

Joined: 03 Apr 2009 Posts: 327
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Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:23 am Post subject: |
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There are problems with those axioms though. It makes sense to describe an inflectional language as more or less inflectional than another inflectional language (compare English, with almost no inflectional affixes, with Latin or Navajo), but your theory says that languages are either inflectional or not, completely disregarding the spectrum of inflectionality (heh) that clearly exists. And some languages are clearly more irregular than others (compare English, with a large number of irregular verbs, with Turkish, which has only one), some languages have more free word order than others (compare Latin with Warlpiri), and so on.
Also, languages like Swahili and Arabic would be 0-tagged for axiom 3, even though they clearly use inflections, because that axiom ignores all forms of inflection besides suffixes. |
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tienzen Fheari Lazhin

Joined: 24 Jul 2009 Posts: 170 Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Nortaneous wrote: | There are problems with those axioms though. It makes sense to describe an inflectional language as more or less inflectional than another inflectional language (compare English, with almost no inflectional affixes, with Latin or Navajo), but your theory says that languages are either inflectional or not, completely disregarding the spectrum of inflectionality (heh) that clearly exists. And some languages are clearly more irregular than others (compare English, with a large number of irregular verbs, with Turkish, which has only one), some languages have more free word order than others (compare Latin with Warlpiri), and so on.
Also, languages like Swahili and Arabic would be 0-tagged for axiom 3, even though they clearly use inflections, because that axiom ignores all forms of inflection besides suffixes. |
Good points. I will answer these in a few days.
Tienzen Gong _________________ PreBabel is a universal language. It is available at
http://www.prebabel.info |
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tienzen Fheari Lazhin

Joined: 24 Jul 2009 Posts: 170 Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Tienzen wrote: | | We must know the details of the dynamics of this grammatic continuum before we can discuss the grammar for the PreBabel (proper). I will discuss this in my next post. |
The search for a universal grammar is not new. The generative grammar and the transformational grammar are two examples. Yet, there is a dramatic difference between the PreBabel and those old school ways. Their searches are within the linguistics, comparing different languages. The PreBabel uses a different pathway, the "Large Complex System Principle."
The number system, the topological system, the physics system and the life system are all large complex systems, although the members of each system are different.
The "Large Complex System Principle" (LCSP) states -- there is a set principles which govern all large complex systems; whatever that system is, a number set, a physics set or a life set.
Corollary of LCSP (CLCSP) -- the laws or principles of a "large complex system x" will have their correspondent laws and principles in a "large complex system y."
If CLCSP is correct, then a physics law must have its correspondent law in math or in life system, and vice-verse.
The physics system is the "simplest" system, and it has only a few major principles.
1. Conservation laws
2. Uncertainty principle
3. The second law of thermodynamics, the entropy.
4. Pauli's exclusion principle
5. etc.
The most peculiar principle above is the entropy principle. Can we find it in math universe? The prime number is a very simple math concept. Yet, the large prime number becomes very complicated. There is no formula (or a set of formula) which can encompass all prime numbers. This simple prime number complexity can be viewed as the math equivalent of entropy in physics. In life system, the entropy plays an even more weird role. Under the skin of every life, the entropy principle is violated. Every life destroys its environment (increasing the total entropy of the universe) in order to "reduce" its internal entropy (producing an ordered life system).
Life principle -- increasing the globe entropy in order to reduce the local entropy. Thus, the entropy (disorder) is, in fact, the source for "order." That is, B is true if and only if the non-B is true. This life principle violates the most important logic principle -- the principle of noncontracdiction ( B and non-B cannot be true at the same time). From this life principle, we get the "Mutual Immanence Principle."
Mutual Immanence Principle (MIP) -- B and non-B are mutually immanent. That is, the life principle is a different expression of MIP.
If MIP is a principle in LCS (Large Complex System), then it should also be a principle in linguistic system as it is a truly large complex system.
For every law or principle, we must show its validity in two ways.
a. its existence -- one true example will do
b. its universality -- in general, the induction proof is sufficient
Can we find one MIP example in linguistic system?
The Martian Language Thesis -- Any human language can always establish a communication with the Martian or martian-like languages. Thus,
Universal principle I -- all languages (human or martian) share the identical metalanguage.
Universal principle II -- all language structures are subset of a universal language structure.
On the one hand, these two universal principles produce a "permanent confinement" for all languages; no language can escape from it. On the other hand, it is this permanent confinement which allows the production of infinite number of languages -- as the martian language is just a fictitious language, it has infinite possibility.
Among the large complex systems, the physics system is the simplest. The life system is also simple as all lives share the same set of alphabets, the amino groups. On the other hand, the linguistic system is the most complicated complex system, seemingly, no shared basic units, neither morphemes, phonetics nor grammatic rules. Thus, tackling the linguistic system directly by investigating a few languages can be often futile.
By applying the "Large Complex System Principle," the understanding of those simpler systems can be a guiding light for our research. With the MIP (the life principle), the linguistics is no longer a simple logic system but is a life system.
Now, I have introduced three new concepts.
1. A new methodology -- The "Large Complex System Principle"
2. A new type of system -- not bound by the principle of noncontracdiction ( B and non-B cannot be true at the same time), and the Mutual Immanence Principle rules.
3. A new concept of "permanent confinement" which is mutually immanent with infinite possibility.
With these, the foundation of a new linguistics is now set. The search for the true universal grammar begins.
Tienzen Gong _________________ PreBabel is a universal language. It is available at
http://www.prebabel.info |
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Khagan Olvaszi Lazhin

Joined: 24 Oct 2009 Posts: 416
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Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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Let me try to paraphrase some of what has been discussed thus far:
While the definitions for "word" and "sentence" in Lx if and only if the non-B is true. This life principle is violated. Every word of its vocabulary is also accused as the only reason for China's high illiteracy (over 85%) at that time.
However, the process of Romanization of Chinese words is agreed by a linguistic theories, they can simply be defined as the bubbly foam at someone's mouth corner when they speak. Now, we call a spit ¤f ªj (mouth foamy droplets). Of course, the meaning of this word can be looked up in dictionary.
In Chinese Etymology" has, at least, one unique topological system, the topological system, the Heisig-like system will definitely be a poison for a learner in two ways.
a. its existence -- one true example in linguistics, comparing different languages "think" and "behave" differently because of it, from a slavery mentality to a confident thinker.
Thus, the PreBabel (Proper) can roam in? In SULT, it shows a grammar continuum before a through research
Why are you asking question. We must learn it as it is.
Furthermore, the "universal language in the world politics. With the development of PreBabel, the PreBabel should have "a grammar" to look like the grammar for the PreBabel (Proper). But for PreBabel (Chinese) for details.
With these five points, a few more issues arise, and I will discuss this in my next post.
Chinese written system.
Eighty percent (80%) of the domain will be different language structure.
On the other hand, it is this permanent confinement which allows the process of Romanization of the experienced world in such a way that speakers of different languages. The PreBabel uses a different language x or language y. This is a testable issue, and there is a set principle II -- all languages, affecting the cognitive classification of the experienced world in such a way that speakers "think" and "behave" different language teaching websites began to introduce some similar ideas without mentioning the source while the Classic languages (the knowledge acquired by learning the PreBabel (Proper). But for PreBabel (Proper). But for PreBabel (Chinese), any 10 year old American kids who went to the old Chinese written as it is?
In CE, the meaning for wx.
1) Definition one: Set UL = {Lx; Lx is a natural languages.
2) Definition seven: Px is a "phrase" in Lx if and only if the non-B is true. This life principle -- increasing the globe entropy in order to reduce the local entropy plays an even more weird role. Under the skin of every life, the entropy.
3. Pauli's exclusion principles which govern all large complex system y."
If CLCSP is correct, then a physics law must have, at least, two wx. Px = Opc (syxa, syxb, ...)).
Note: Definition 6.a -- If Sx has only one wx, Sx = Opd (wx) is a "degenerated" sentence.
4) Definition eight: "Operator" of accumulation (Opa) -- Only "sentences" of Lx into a linear chain.
Note: logically linked linear chain acts as a chain or a system of root word system is an 100% axiomatic root word set.
Regardless of the market value of this law, the issue here is that whether it is correct, then a physics and mathematics, the flexibility of language ... effectively arguing that all languages think and behave difference is simply too great.
"The People's Republic of China (PRC) was found in any previously published after December 2004 , it might not be an evidence to support that I am right.
The correctness of my book must be from its own right. It must "work" for the entire human history ever before. They cannot be true at the same time), and the meaning. For ªj , its core meaning. For ªj , its core meaning can be read out from its face.
b. its universe Arrow gravitation
b. life universe is about briefly before, I would like to make the following points to clarify the issues here.
5. For an arbitrary and chaotic data set, the "entire" (not partial) set can be learned neither morphemes, phonetics nor grammatic continuum goes from a ground state has higher plasticity (fuzziness or flexibility). The high energy state (type 0) to a high energy state (type 1). Which state is better? This is not to say that the type 1 language has no flexibility but is relatively less. However, the growth pattern should be from the ground state to high energy state is better? This is not a good question. The ground state to high energy state. Yet, the gravity should pull toward the direction to the default state. |
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tienzen Fheari Lazhin

Joined: 24 Jul 2009 Posts: 170 Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:39 am Post subject: |
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| Tienzen wrote: | Now, I have introduced three new concepts.
1. A new methodology -- The "Large Complex System Principle"
2. A new type of system -- not bound by the principle of noncontracdiction ( B and non-B cannot be true at the same time), and the Mutual Immanence Principle rules.
3. A new concept of "permanent confinement" which is mutually immanent with infinite possibility.
With these, the foundation of a new linguistics is now set. The search for the true universal grammar begins. |
What works in Heaven might not be working on Earth. What happens in Alice's wonderland might not be happening in the real life. For linguistics, we must first know what kind of system it roams in before we can truly understand it.
In 1920s, Einstein and Bohr debated fiercely over the issue of uncertainty principle. For Einstein, the uncertainty principle could render the physical world to be inconsistent. As the strong believer of the formal system, Einstein could not accept the possibility of a principle like the uncertainty principle.
*** Formal system -- governed by the "principle of noncontracdiction" ( B and non-B cannot be true at the same time). The key phrase is "the internal consistency." As long as a system has an internal consistency, it is valid although it might be contradicting with other systems.
In late 1930s, Godel proved his "second incompleteness theorem" which states that most of the formal systems has, at least, one inconsistent statement. I will call this Godel system.
*** For Godel system, the consistency is still the norm, but it leaks. And, there is no "formal" way to repair that leak.
If Einstein knew the Godel system at the time of his E-B debate, he would not have been against the uncertainty principle (UP) with the fierceness he did. Yet, mathematically, the UP does not go out of the formal system. The UP is still bound by the complementary principle. If A + B = total, then A and B are complement to each other. The complementary principle does not go beyond the "principle of noncontracdiction". For quantum theory and Relativity theories, they are all roaming in the "formal" system. Of course, the "real number" system roams in the Godel system.
*** In my last post, I introduced the "life system" which is not bound by neither the "principle of noncontracdiction" nor the complementary principle. It is ruled by the Mutual Immanence Principle which means that "B is true if and only if non-B is true." There are many such examples in the real life.
There is beautiful if and only if there is non-beautiful.
There is "left" if and only if there is "non-left" (right).
There is "death" if and only if there is "non-death" (life). etc..
That is, we have three different kind of axiom systems.
1. Formal system:
a. governing rule -- the "principle of noncontracdiction" and complementary principle.
b. key phrase -- the internal consistency
2. Godel system:
a. governing rule -- the "principle of noncontracdiction" and complementary principle.
b. key phrase -- leaks. The internal consistency can never be maintained.
3. Life system:
a. governing rule -- Mutual Immanence Principle
b. key phrase -- permanent confinement
Obviously, the first two kinds of system are the subset of the life system. Yet, for biological life, it is still very much roaming in the formal system, as the amino groups and DNA are governed by the law of consistency. Only at mutation and evolution processes, lives go beyond the formal system.
In my last post, I have stated that the linguistics is the "most" complicated "life system". Thus, any research of linguistics in and with formal system (such as the generative linguistics) will definitely be futile. As soon as we understand the laws and the principles which govern the "life system", we will reach the total understanding of linguistics. Now, the question is that "What does "permanent confinement" mean?"
Tienzen Gong _________________ PreBabel is a universal language. It is available at
http://www.prebabel.info |
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tienzen Fheari Lazhin

Joined: 24 Jul 2009 Posts: 170 Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Tienzen wrote: | | As soon as we understand the laws and the principles which govern the "life system", we will reach the total understanding of linguistics. Now, the question is that "What does "permanent confinement" mean?" |
If linguistics roams in the "life system", then the universal grammar of the linguistics must obey the governing law of the life system. But, why is the "permanent confinement" the governing law of life system?
For formal system, it is a "bound" system, bound by the requirement of consistency. No contradiction is allowed. It is a "complete" system, having the characteristics of "completeness".
When a formal system grows in size, it also grows in complexity. At one point, it can no longer prevent the rising of contradictions. It becomes the Godel system which is still a "bound" system, and the consistency is still the norm. But, it cannot avoid contradictions, having the characteristics of "incompleteness".
When the contradictions become the norm, no longer the exceptions, the new system encompasses all possibility. That is, nothing (contradiction or not) can escape from this new system, the life system. This is the permanent confinement.
But, what does this permanent confinement mean? Is there an actual example in the real world?
For any non-radioactive atom, its nucleus is a "bound" system, a formal system, a stable system. When the nucleus grows in size, that bound system becomes to leak, radioactive, and it becomes the Godel system. In both cases, the proton or the neutron in the nucleus are bound particles, not free particles.
On the other hand, no quark can ever come out of neither proton nor neutron. Quarks are permanently confined in those elementary particles. Yet, the dynamics of quarks show that quarks are true free particles, the asymptotic freedom. In fact, the true free particle exists only under the condition of permanent confinement. The absolute vacuum is the strongest permanent confinement. Without a rescue ship, a free floating astronaut will be permanently confined in space.
Thus, the permanent confinement means the "total freedom". The Martian language thesis shows both the permanent confinement and the total freedom. Whatever the Martian language is (infinite possibility means the total freedom), we can always establish the communication with it (no escape means permanent confinement).
Thus, the universal grammar of linguistics has only one rule, the total freedom. Many of you said, "the diversity of the grammar is so great, there is no chance to find the universal grammar." Your saying is, in fact, isomorphic to my conclusion, but in a negative way. It is because of the universal grammar (the total freedom) which allows the diversity of grammar. It is because of this universal grammar which allows the rise of SULT language spectrum.
Now, both Nortaneous' and Systemzwang's questions can be addressed.
| Systemzwang wrote: |
| Tienzen wrote: |
These changes violated all rational linguistic rules. |
What?
What linguistic rules are you talking about? On whose authorities are those rules valid? Where do you find any such rules? |
Tienzen Gong _________________ PreBabel is a universal language. It is available at
http://www.prebabel.info |
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